This Car Is A Hot-Hatch

"Margin Of Error" (marginoferror) 03/24/2015 at 11:07 • Filed to: IDEOLOGY

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Good morning fellow opponauts,

I've been dealing with a lot of criticism lately for categorizing a Nissan Sentra SE-R as an hot hatch. I understand the car is a sedan, but it's Nissan's factory-tuned economy car, and that's what we mean by hot hatch. We're not going to call a Ferrari FF a hot hatch, right ?

So I decided that we needed a new term to clearly identify cars that belongs to that class.

An hot hatch is not any performance vehicle with a rear hatch, it's a performance-enhanced version of an economy car. Historically, economy cars were usually hatchbacks, so that's where the term comes from. For example, the civic Si pictured below is definitely a hot hatch.

This Cobalt SS ? definitely an hot hatch.

This Volkswagen Corrado ? No.

But why ? Here's the shocker : The Corrado was never meant to be an economy car, it was a sport car, and an expensive one at it. It wasn't a $30K version of a $15K car, it was a $30K car (in Today's currency) that could be optioned up the mid $40K, and so was the Acura Integra/RSX.

Now let's expand our scope and take this analysis one step further.

Is the Mazda a hot hatch ?

The answer is no. Despite a lot of sporting qualities, there's no factory-tuned version. Unless Mazda step up its game and offer us a Mazdaspeed2, the Mazda2 will not be a hot-hatch.

Is the Jetta GLI an hot-hatch ?

Most definitely. In America, the Jetta is VW's entry level car that starts as low as $14k, so it's normal that the $25K factory enhanced GLI version is considered a hot-hatch.

Now the burning question, is the "hot-hatch" term still relevant in 2015 ? Most automakers are shifting towards sedan body styles for the North American market , so it is likely that we will see more an more of these hot-hatch sedans. Think about it for a minute, if Ford was to bring the much needed sedan version of the Fiesta ST, wouldn't it be a hot-hatch ?

So Oppo, I think we need to find a new name for that class of cars, and I'm going to be the first to submit an idea : Pocket-Rockets

What do you guys think ?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:11

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A sedan is not a hatch there, moe.

Milky > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:12

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Your posts are always curiously on the edge of trolling …. not sure if good or bad it.

djmt1 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:14

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America's refusal to adopt hatchbacks isn't my problem so Hot Hatch is here to stay.

Margin Of Error > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 03/24/2015 at 11:15

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Read carefully, I'm not trying to convince you that a sedan is an hatch, I'm trying to convince you that hot-hatch is an irrelevant term and must be replaced.

Frozenbuddy > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:15

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I like the idea of pocket-rocket. This also could cover hot hatches, but also "hot sedans", and sound a whole hell of a lot better than "hot sedan".

"Hot sedan" sounds like hell.

Margin Of Error > djmt1 03/24/2015 at 11:16

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I like how you can casually ignore a 350 Million + market.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:16

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I dunno. I was thinking about that yesterday when I found the SRT-4 ACR. I would say pocket-rocket or, to give it the nam that the guys at the dirt track use, sport compact.

Margin Of Error > Frozenbuddy 03/24/2015 at 11:17

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Hot pockets ?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:17

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But it's not. It literally means a hotted up hatchback .

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 03/24/2015 at 11:18

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Who ya calling moe, adm?

For Sweden > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:18

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This is a good name, considering they have a frozen part deep inside (the driver's personality)

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 03/24/2015 at 11:19

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moe is a moe, fsw

Boxer_4 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:20

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I think the term you are looking for is "sport compact".

djmt1 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:20

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I'm British, snobbery is compulsory by Royal Charter.

jariten1781 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:22

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Nope. Part of the appeal of a 'hot-hatch' is the usability of the interior. You exchange that for 'style' in a hotted up version of an econocoupe/sedan.

Margin Of Error > Boxer_4 03/24/2015 at 11:22

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But that would kick out the Fiesta ST out of the category, as the Fiesta is a subcompact car.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:25

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We already have a term for a "sporty compact" - sport compact. The name of the entire "scene" of modern tuning nowadays, really. All hot hatches are sport compacts but not all sport compacts are hot hatches.

Margin Of Error > Milky 03/24/2015 at 11:25

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You always jump in my thread accusing me of trolling, don't you have any better things to do ?

I think I'm asking a very valid question.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:25

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But it is more compact than most cars therefore it still applies. It is the correct term. Much more so than calling a sentra SE-R a hot hatch.

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:26

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I am very sure for a car to qualify as a Hot Hatch it has to be a Hatchback first. Pretty sure no one ever categorized the early Escort RS' as Hot Hatches. RS Cosworth? Yes. RS1600? No. Toyota AE86 Hatch? YES. Notch? NO. The only three-box sedans to qualify as a Hot Hatch are the hot versions of the ones that actually have a hatch a la Octavia vRS.

or earlier: Seat Toledo 2.0 16V

Margin Of Error > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/24/2015 at 11:27

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But that was a car that would have been cross-shopped with a GTI.

The Neon was competing against the Golf, so its performance version was definitely in the same category.

For Sweden > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 03/24/2015 at 11:28

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I love the reflexive property!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 03/24/2015 at 11:29

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This is correct. As I said in my post the term for these cars as a whole is "sport compact" identifying these cars as small but fast/sporty. All hot hatches classify as sport compacts (otherwise they'd be wagons if they were bigger) but not all sport compacts are hot hatches as not all sport compacts have a hatchback body.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:29

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True enough.

Sn210 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:30

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these examples are neither hot nor hatches. They are sport compacts.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:31

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Other than the Corrado, all of those cars are "Hot Trunks". The Mazda 2 is an economy car that is slightly better than other economy cars in it's category.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:32

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Again, not all compacts are hatchbacks so why are all fast compact cars hot hatches? Golf and neon compete in the compact segment, not the hatchback segment. The hatchback body is a hallmark of the Golf and a "feature" if you will. It defines the car, not the segment.

Jayhawk Jake > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:32

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While I know you basically do these to be ironic and silly, if it's not a hatch it's not a hatch.

I can see your logic here, and it's not completely flawed...but sorry, a sedan =/= hatch

Margin Of Error > Jayhawk Jake 03/24/2015 at 11:33

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Hence the need for a new term to define these cars.

Nothing ironic or silly.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 03/24/2015 at 11:34

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Kids these days.....thinking they've changed the game when they're not even playing the damn game....

Margin Of Error > jariten1781 03/24/2015 at 11:35

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I disagree, it's all about performance, when is the last time the Fiesta ST has been praised for th usability of its interior ?

Margin Of Error > Sn210 03/24/2015 at 11:35

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The Fiesta and the Mazda2 are subcompacts.

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:36

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The term hot hatch refers to a sporty version of a three- or five-door hatchback, not ALL performance versions of economy cars. Those are referred to as Sport Compacts, or Hot Beige.

MultiplaOrgasms > Frozenbuddy 03/24/2015 at 11:37

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Hot Beige.

Margin Of Error > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 11:39

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Never heard of hot beige before !

Sn210 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:40

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I think you're being too literal about the wrong things. Subcompacts are still compacts, but sedans are not hatches. I'd consider the FiST a hot hatch, but not a Mazda2. A FiST sedan would be a sport compact.

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:41

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Made that up just now. Still much better than calling them Hot Hatches, because they are not.

jariten1781 > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:42

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Over the Fiesta sedan (or any other sub-compact/city car sedan)...every time.

Head-to-head reviews with the Civic Si or BRZ always give interior versatility to the ST. It's literarlly a hallmark of every direct comparison. Here's the first that pops up when I search:

http://www.autoguide.com/car-comparison…

It really is an intriguing alternative for anyone who needs the practicality and usability of a five-door hatchback but still wants a fully engaging driving experience.

That is literally what defines a hot-hatch compared to other performance compacts.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:43

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From wikipedia on the term "sport compact" -

A sport compact is a high-performance version of a compact car or a subcompact car . They are typically front engined , front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive coupés, sedans, or hatchbacks driven by a straight-4 gasoline engine . Performance-oriented sport compacts generally focus on improving handling and increasing performance by engine efficiency, rather than increasing engine size. Sport compacts often feature external body modifications to improve aerodynamics or house larger wheels.

and 100 more > djmt1 03/24/2015 at 11:45

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sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:47

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Sport compact can also apply to subcompact.

Milky > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:49

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Giving me my own office last year might of not been the wisest business decision made by the company. Also its only been two of your threads.

Also, also, you didn't say no ….

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:49

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I'm not even going to explain why a sedan or coupe can't be a "hot-hatch", as it is painfully obvious. What I do take issue with is the idea that anyone wants a sedan fiesta st. It is both uglier and less practical, and would also have less chassis stiffness to boot. Americans and their refusal to buy hatches is the reason we didn't get proper ST's in the first place, accept that the hatch is the best for for a compact or smaller.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:51

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People also bought shake weights, doesn't mean they aren't dumb as hell.

MultiplaOrgasms > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 11:51

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What makes Hot Hatches so appealing is that they have all the added performance but retain the usability and compact dimensions of their lesser siblings. Sure, it is not the primary concern with one, but the hot version is generally just as practical as the base models. As JC once pointed out "The Hot Hatchback offers drawback free motoring, it is a car for the race track and winding back roads as well as for the school run and your weekly shopping."

MultiplaOrgasms > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/24/2015 at 11:53

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Except the Octavia vRS.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 12:00

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Sports Sedan. BAM!

505 - morphine not found > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 12:01

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I'm sorry, but this is just plainly wrong. Hot Hatchback is a British expression, because in Britain, and most of western Europe, hatchbacks rule the economy class, and more importantly, are the versions warmed over / hotted up by the companies, even when there's a sedan in the lineup. Prime example: when the Civic was available in both sedan and hatchback forms the Type-R was the hatchback in Europe, while it was the sedan in Japan. The sedan got IRS and the hatchback didn't but still, form ruled.

Europe simply finds the hatchback form hotter than the sedan form, that's it.

Now i get that you like the expression, and i get you want to use one single formula to encompass all the sporty economy cars present on the USDM, but frankly, calling something without a hatchback a Hot Hatchback is simply wrong. Especially, as not even half of the cars in your category are hatchbacks.

Find another expression please.

Margin Of Error > 505 - morphine not found 03/24/2015 at 12:04

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You clearly understand were I'm heading to, but I think ou may have missed the last paragraph of my article :

"So Oppo, I think we need to find a new name for that class of cars, and I'm going to be the first to submit an idea : Pocket-Rockets

What do you guys think ?"

MultiplaOrgasms > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/24/2015 at 12:08

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Hot Hatch. Bam!

e30dork > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 12:11

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but a subcompact is a compact, says so right there in the name, square is a rectangle ect

505 - morphine not found > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 12:12

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Hah, the one time i comment without reading properly, i get busted :-DDDD

Anyhow. Pocket-Rocket works for something small, like a mini cooper S, a 500 Abarth, or a FiST, but much less for cars like the Civic SI or the Jetta. So that isn't all-encompassing enough, if you ask me.

However, why not get at this from another vantage point, and see what the professionals came up with? I'm pretty sure American car mags already did comparison tests on some of these models, like pitting the Focus ST against the Civic SI. Why not look up what they called the category?

Margin Of Error > 505 - morphine not found 03/24/2015 at 12:14

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Great idea, I'll check this out

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 12:15

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Liftback =/= hatchback.

Mazda 6 liftback:

Mazda 6 wagon:

One has the same interior room as the sedan, the other is a wagon.

feather-throttle-not-hair > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 12:17

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I see your logic here, and I agree that we need to come up with a more american centric way of describing this class. But lumping all performance cars based on economy cars into one category is problematic at times too, particularly at the edges. Did you read about the Corolla Nurburgring edition yesterday? Technically a hot hatch by your definition. On the other end, we have the Sti and the evo, cars that are more expensive than the corrodo ever was.

Margin Of Error > 505 - morphine not found 03/24/2015 at 12:18

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Fellow Opponaut Bill Clavey is calling them sport compacts

http://williamclavey.kinja.com/the-10-best-su…

Margin Of Error > feather-throttle-not-hair 03/24/2015 at 12:20

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The Corolla nurburing is for other markets, and it's more like a special edition like the Dale Earnhardt Lumina. No real performance upgrades.

Margin Of Error > e30dork 03/24/2015 at 12:28

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I don't necessarily agree

For Sweden > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 12:31

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Frozenbuddy > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 12:35

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...Sounds like Purgatory.

MultiplaOrgasms > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/24/2015 at 13:00

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Wrong. A Liftback is always a Hatchback. The term Liftback only refers to a Hatchback with a more sloped hatch . Liftbacks also usually have a larger trunk and are a lot easier to load than their sedan counterparts => practicality advantage.

Jayhawk Jake > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 13:43

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But a hot hatch will always be a hot hatch.

Name the sedans sport-compacts. That's what they are.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Margin Of Error 03/24/2015 at 14:03

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I pretty sure hot hatches are hatchbacks period.

also an is only used before a word starting with a vowel.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 14:16

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But if it was a proper wagon or HATCHback it would have even more room. I don't doubt that the lift makes it easier to use that volume, but the dimensions of the liftback aren't really any different from the sedan. Perhaps mitsubishi named theirs right by calling it a "sportback"? I'd certainly call it a hatchback as it makes a considerable effort to increase room back there.

MultiplaOrgasms > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/24/2015 at 16:18

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The only difference between a Mondeo "Liftback" and a Lancer Sportback is that the Lancer more strongly resembles a "Hatchback" than the Mondeo. The Sportback is the replacement for the Lancer Wagon, and as such is less spacious than the car it replaces even though it is both wider and taller than the old Wagon. If that old car buying advisor I had lying around is to be believed, a Mondeo "Liftback" offers more trunk space, but this would be cheating since the Mondeo is a class bigger. The only thing comparable in size, conception, market positioning and price that I found was, wait for it...

Yep, you guessed it, our old friend the Skoda Octavia.

And even the sedan version of that one is more practical, on paper at least. I can also say from experience that nothing below the size of a 5-series can hold a candle to the Octavia in terms of passenger space. (source: An uncle of mine has a 2007 Octavia Wagon, as well as a RHD Crossfire and a bunch of custom Motorcycles) In fact research also revealed that the Sportback doesn't offer more absolute space than a Civic Hatch (which is a full 30cm shorter I should point out).

But I am starting to digress...

My point is, the Sportback is closer to a 5-door sedan than an actual wagon. It does have the added usability that accompanies the 5-door sedan, but it somewhat lacks the added volume of the wagon. This is indicated by the name: SPORTback. It pretends to be practical, but it does not offer a huge advantage of the sedan. It does not intend to be a full on family/stuff-around hauler, it caters to the kind of buyer that does not want to drive something that looks like the car their parents drove back in the day, the kind of person that buys a 3 series wagon, not because it offers a lot of practicality, but because it is more stylish than the sedan (A non-EVO lancer is just as boring as a Corolla, fact). In short, it is another victim of the Lifestyle wagon fad. A 5-door sedan somewhat exists for the same reason. It's just that little more usable than the sedan, but doesn't look like your moms car. Except most Liftback sedans are rather dreary as well, just look at these sad creatures:

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 18:32

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But the octavia you were showing off is now so large that it *is* classified as a mid sized sedan. I'm aware it's on the MQB or whatever platform but it has been stretched and modified to be a mid-sized sedan. The compact sedans with liftbacks end up like the elantra GT or vectra that you posted - weird pseudo-hybrid things with a bit of extra space over a sedan but still not quite a full hatch or wagon rear end. The Sportback does have a considerable jump in room over the standard lancer, but it is still half-assed. My point though was that the hatchback bodystyle is what is important here. As well as compact, and cheap price. The octavia is cheap, but it's hatch gives it little to no extra room, just an ease of access to the back. Useful? Yes. Practical? Yes. More volumous? No. It is just easier to use the room that is there.

Ergo, to go back to the main point = Octavia vRS - not a hot hatch, but a mid-sized sports sedan/liftback. BUT there is one octavia I will accept as a hot hatch-

Even if it isn't a liftback, I will grant it an exception to be whatever it wants because WRC. It never won the title but it was fun to see them run with the much better funded Subaru and Peugeot teams on more wide open stages. Apparently the Octavias in the early 2000s had some serious boost and could outrun the other WRC cars on acceleration and top speed. Sadly their larger bodies meant they lost more time in the turns than they made up on the straights.

MultiplaOrgasms > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/24/2015 at 20:39

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A) The Lancer isn't much smaller than a 3-series either. Case in point:

Lancer:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Octavia:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

F30 3-series:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

4" longer, 2" wider and 1-2" lower than the Lancer with 2" longer wheelbase. Minor stuff. Note how the 3-series, which is pretty much the smallest midsizer you can buy right now, slots in right between. Most compacts have far outgrown their predecessors. The Lancer isn't any different from the rest of the bunch.

Source: blatantly copied from Wikipedia

B) The Octavia has been designed to have a hatch in the first place.

There is no gain in volume over a sedan, because there is no 4-door Octavia to gain volume from. There is the Jetta, I guess...

Rear seats of a Jetta:

Rear seats of an Octavia:

Both have pretty much identical exterior dimensions.

C) because Rally car

So a WRC Octavia is allowed to be called hot hatch because it raced against a bunch of shitty Peugeot hatchbacks. Contradiction much?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > MultiplaOrgasms 03/24/2015 at 21:15

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A/B) I'm not the one classifying the thing. From wikipedia, it is classed probably by insurance/fuel regulations as a "large family car" which translates to America as a midsized car. Also it is classified as a saloon for those same purposes (as far as I can tell) where a golf would be a......wait for it.......hatchback. The octavia was engineered to use the compact platform to make it a midsized sedan. You pointed that out yourself by comparing the jetta to the octavia.

C) Yes. It raced against hot hatches (well......they raced the WRX sedan but it came as a true hatchback) with AWD so it became a stubby sedan with AWD. Not really a contradiction there, just me calling it that in a "I don't care what it's called it's awesome and badass and I love it" kind of way.